1-3/4" vs. 2-1/2" Hi-rise pack

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Permalink回复Ricky Teteron2008年8月21日下午8:49

We carry both 1 3/4" hi-rise packs & 2 1/2" hi-rise packs. The situation determines the pack we carry, on box alarms and reports of smoke with no obvious fire upon arrival and the initial engine company will carry 100' of 1 3/4" hose with a hi-rise bag that contains tools necessary for hooking up to the standpipe such as spanners, pipe wrench, adapters, door chocks, etc. The hose pack has a smooth bore nozzle with a 15/16" tip and a 2 1/2" to 1 3/4" reducer. If we have obvious fire conditions with visible fire or we are the back up engine we will deploy with the 2 1/2" hi-rise packs and bag.

One of the biggest concerns with the 2 1/2" line is mobility. With proper practice and enough firefighters the 2 1/2" can be moved efficiently and provide big water for extinguishment, If everyone is not on the same page and working together or the line is overpressurized the advancement can stall.

I am not a smooth bore only advocate, but they definately have their place and standpipe operations is one of those places. The debris that is present in standpipes has the potential to render your fog nozzles useless and the possibility of pressure reducing valves (PRV"S) limiting your ability to get the proper pressure needed are a couple of reasons to use the smooth bore nozzle. Another big reason for the smooth bore is operating pressure with the smooth bore your operating pressures are less which will help increase your mobility.

I hope this addresses what your were looking for!

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Permalink回复Michael Scanzeraon2008年8月22日下午7:32

绝对有帮助。我要打印和distribute your answer to our safety and R/D committee. Maybe we can find room in our already crowded Pierce Quantum engines for 2 hi-rise packs (maybe get rid of some of that ALS medical equipment...;-) ). Out of curiosity, how are your units staffed and how many FF's does it typically take you for the 2-1/2?

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Permalink回复Bob FranklinonAugust 24, 2008 at 12:45pm

Hello Mike,
几年前，我的部门对软管线进行了研究，以进行攻击和高级操作。我们咨询了从事业务已有60多年的当地消防洒水公司。他们的工程师也有一些消防局，非常有帮助。我们还使用1-3/4软管进行高质操作。我们研究了消防员受伤或杀害的高野事事件，并发现了一些令人震惊的信息。在几乎所有死亡中，小软管线（带有自动喷嘴的1-3/4）是造成生命损失的贡献者。

Here is what we determined. First and for most the standpipe systems were designed for high volume flow with low pressure. In order for proper fire streams to be developed by the hose team, hose with low friction loss and nozzles with greater reach must be deployed. We investigated 1-3/4, 2-inch and 2-1/2 using a varity of differant nozzles. Most wall hydrant outlets (2-1/2) are designed to operate at 100 p.s.i., older building will be less, around 68 p.s.i.. This 100 p.s.i. has to cover friction loss as well as nozzle pressure. We used flow meters as well as in-line gauges to conduct our test. We discovered that the 2-1/2 line with a 15/16 smoothbore or 1-inch smoothbore was our nozzle of choice. It take as crew of 3 to make it operate using 100-200 ft. of 2-1/2. With training it will work as smooth as clock work ( 50 psi nozzle pressure and 10 psi per 100 ft. 2-1/2 equals 70 psi total pressure), come to FDIC and take the highrise class offered in the hands-on-training, it will really open your eyes on manpower to operate and advance a 2-1/2 in a highrise operation.

立管设计用于使用2-1/2软管在最高点（屋顶）上带有光滑底尖的软管。为了获得最大流量，为什么要使用较小的线？正如朋友用简单的说法（对于那些狩猎的人）所说的那样，站立式弹枪是一个12号shot弹枪，它旨在射击12台Guage shot弹枪壳（2-1/2软管）。但是，消防员一直在寻找一种更轻松的出路，抱怨说，一袋shot弹枪壳很重。为什么不使用22壳！我们可以拿一个22壳（1-3/4软管），钻出花费的12号套管的射击销，以适合22量规外壳（2-1/2至1-1/2还原器），我们可以现在携带较小的贝壳（软管）。这里的重点是，是的，这可能适合12号shot弹枪，它可能会发射22个子弹，但是它不会有效，因为22个子弹并非旨在从12号shot弹枪发射。

同样适用于立管。它旨在用2-1/2的霍斯线操作，如果不是全部的墙壁排放量为1-1/2，而不是2-1/2。现在，您仍然可以随身携带1-3/4软管，以便在拖把操作中使用。使用Elkhart首席喷嘴（带有小型的直线型），您将拥有出色的火流。当大火被撞倒时，将尖端拧下来，然后将1-3/4软管线放在喷嘴的末端，以洗净。我们发现，2-1/2锥形还原器至1-1/2的流程比标准更好
2-1/2 to 1-1/2 reducer.

我们与之合作的工程师提出了一个我们未考虑的区域，杂物在管道上！当您开始将水流流过系统时，该管道中的任何东西都会流向喷嘴。可能有香烟包，纸或聚苯乙烯泡沫塑料杯，大块的生锈会破裂并停止雾气喷嘴。在大多数情况下，碎屑将流过光滑底部，而您的流将继续。

Hope this helps be safe and take care,

Bob Franklin

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Permalink回复埃里希·罗登（Erich Roden）on2008年8月24日下午3:12

鲍勃...

Many people overlook the importance of the PRESSURE issues with standpipes; sometimes volume isn't everything when it comes to Engine operations. 2 1/2" hose not only gives the desired flow rate, reach and penetration, it has a lot of "give" when it comes to getting adequate flow with low pressures. As Bob alluded to, pre 1993 standpipes (65psi outlet pressures [NFPA 14]) rarely give us outlet pressures to overcome friction loss associated with 1 3/4" hose and nozzle pressure (forget it if you're using automatic nozzles). I do have to disagree with your nozzle choice however Bob. While the 15/16" and 1" tips are ideal for 1 3/4" hose, and give you flows of 182 and 200gpm, respectively, I recommend a 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" tip. That will give you 266 or 320 gpm, respectively. Even at extremely reduced flows or malfunctioning, unadjustable pressure reducing valves, you'll still get roughly 200 gpm at 40 psi outlet pressure; or lower depending on the length of your stretch; save any debris in the piping, clogging issues,etc. Moreover, it is still manageable with the staffing level referenced in your post. You even hit it right on the head by stating a truism that training will make it clockwork. Great analogy with the "shotgun" approach. The shotgun approach also works well in getting Brothers married...

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Permalink回复Michael Scanzeraon2008年8月24日下午3:16

鲍勃，
Thanks that information is GREAT !!!! Just have to check with out Fire inspectors to see how I go about finding out info on the majority of standpipes. We have a number of very old building that were grandfathered in to not haveing standpipes and some that were retrofitted to NFPA guidelines.

-麦克风

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Permalink回复Bob Franklinon2008年8月24日下午3:23

Erich, You are correct, my mistake! We use 1-1/8 tips on our 2-1/2. We use the 15/16 and 1-inch on our 1-3/4. I let my fingers do the walking and they took off running!. Sorry!!
Bob

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Permalink回复Ricky Teteron2008年8月24日下午8:52

很高兴这帮助。我们幸运地运行4person engine crews, an engineer, an officer and two muckers on the back step. With the Officer and the two muckers we can deploy our 200' of 2 1/2". I'm not going to lie and say it is easy you bust your rear, but with training it can be done. We are also lucky enough to have 4 person truck companies also and most truck crews are pretty good about grabbing some line and helping advance as they are moving forward to their assignments.

Our shop has done a great job creating brackets inside the cab of our apparatus that we hang our packs on, our packs are set up in 50' hoseshoe loads so they hang nicely on the racks as well as on our cylinders while we are carrying them and the brackets keep them out of the way.

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Permalink回复罗伯特·欧文斯（Robert Owens）onAugust 25, 2008 at 8:29am

We also have both. Typically we use the 2 1/2 for large commercial occupancies that are uncompartmented, and anything with stand pipe operations.

我们将1 3/4用于领导者线（我们主要在多个家庭住宅上部署），以及小型隔间商业OCC，例如食品服务等。

我喜欢2 1/2，并认为它是消防部门使用工具最少培训的方法之一。

Shoot me your email and I will email you the Power Point presentation we used to introduce it to our FD and all of the testing we did with it.

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Permalink回复Michael Scanzeraon2008年8月25日下午4:13

thanks for the extra info. my email is mscanzera@aol.com if i can get a copy of that powerpoint presentation that would be awesome. thanks again for the info!!!

-麦克风

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Permalink回复约翰·瓦基（John Wakie Jr）。onSeptember 9, 2008 at 2:17pm

mike,
我会考虑使用2 1/2英寸的线路用于所有高层建筑防火建筑。如果风驱动，这些大火倾向于将火炬从房间里吹到走廊上。在最近被FDNY束缚的研究中，使用大型风扇在窗外重新创建了风驱动的火，公共走廊中的诱惑从73度到1200楼，到45秒内！2 1/2英寸的线还将提供大量的水，从而大大减少知识时间。希望这对您有帮助-John Ladder 104 F.D.N.Y.

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Permalink回复雷·麦考马克（Ray McCormack）on2008年9月10日晚上8:55

Many departments choose 1 3/4 hose for standpipe operations for the wrong reasons. Can an 1 3/4 line extinguish a fire in a fire resistant building? Of course. But thats is not the problem. The problem as stated by others is the pressure needed to get 200' of 1 3/4 up and running. 2 1/2" hose is much more forgiving and will see you through the tough ones also. When you attach your wye to the riser so you can supply two 1 3/4 lines. Think about the pressure thats required. I would rather have one 2 1/2.

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Permalink回复doug riceonSeptember 11, 2008 at 11:23pm

if your looking for info on standpipe operations Andy Fredricks and Dave Mcgrail have many great articles on this topic archived on this web site and on Firenuggets.com. Doug

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